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noOne289
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Cincinnati, OH USA
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 Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:56 am Post subject: School Guidance Please |
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I'm a working professional wanting to reenter academia to become an architect. I have a few questions to which I'd really appreciate your answers. Actually, I probably have enough questions to fill this message board, but I'll try to narrow them down to the most important. I'm just going to list them as they come to mind, in no particular order.
I have a B.S. in an unrelated field (Computer Engineering), should I persue a Professional degree in undergraduate or graduate school? Bear in mind that my first time through school, academics were about the last thing on my mind and my transcript shows that.
In the same vein, I am about to take the GRE and was hoping people could offer some direction on what my target score should be. In case it could be a helpful base line, I scored a 1330 on my SAT a decade ago without any formal studying or preparation.
Since I do currently have a full time job and am married, travelling to all of the potential schools is a daunting, if not impossible task. Is there a good strategy for selecting my best fit? I know that the 'right' shool is different for each candidate, but what are the questions I should be asking to make my decision?
Do schools which are perceived as providing a more quality education (MIT, UVA, RISD, etc) truly produce a better chance of employment or are employers more concerned with what the individual can do?
I have wanted to be an architect since sixth grade (16 years ago) and love historic neighborhoods. I have spent five years in the computer field and have become pathetically aware of how bad my college decision was. However, I have managed to command a rather respectable salary. I know this is a decision I must make on my own, but given my passion for architecture versus my current income would you expect the vast rewards (happiness, mental exercise, creativity) to be worth the monetary costs of school and salary reductions? Put another way, do you feel that the lower average salary is far outweighed by the positives of the profession in your life? Can anyone provide me with an average income or an accurate resource for finding this information, i.e. Monster's salary calculator or salary.com? I'm sorry to dwell on this topic for so long, but it is probably my greatest concern. I want to be happy and, like it or not, money contributes to that.
I do not have any plans to offer in a portfolio. However, I have gotten fairly serious in woodworking, specifically furniture design. I also have various writings, paintings, drawings and photographs that I could include. Would it be worth my time to learn a CAD program and do some technical drawings of my furniture, or would my other works serve as a good representation of my abilities?
I suppose that about covers the important questions at this point in the process. I would greatly appreciate any guidance this community can offer me. I very much want to join the industry, but there are so many obstacles I hardly know where to begin. Thanks in advance.
P.S. I'm sorry for the cross-posting. I wasn't sure if this belonged in the Architecture Students Forum or the Architecture Forum as I don't really belong to either community. Please feel free to remove this message from whichever forum it doesn't belong. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 531
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:27 am Post subject: |
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I will try to give my opinion in an orderly fashion:
1) Undergraduate or Graduate School - I would not pursue a B of Arch if you already have an undergraduate degree. There are a handful of schools that provide a 3 1/2 year degree for potential students as yourself. I fit in-between the 2 year and 3 1/2 year program at Miami (OH), but there where 7-10 people in the program with an unrelated degrees from a teacher with an MFA to a couple of guys with a B in Business.
2) Portfolio - Your photos. paintings, furniture will make an excellant portfolio - so there is not need to learn a CAD program. Talk to a college your interested in attending about this matter in more detail.
3) What school is right for you? I personnally break this down into colleges with a techincally based pedigogy to those more art based. If coops are required - no matter what people say - the bulk of the school will be techincally based. There is nothing like visit a school during crit week to see the work being produced by the students. Quality of education is based on the intensity of your fellow students.
Another big question to ask is the percentage of graduates passing the ARE, percentage that become partners/owners, and so on.
Pay is based upon your location and the size of the firm. Others maybe better at this information, but I think starting pay is anywhere from $30-35 K. My wild guess as I am out of the loop on this one.
4) College Pedigree - I do not think that the pedigree of the college is important, unless you are trying to work for a "Name Architect". Architecture school is a lot like law school as graduates of local schools are normally hired over long distance school - simply because the local architects are more familiar with the program in their state or region. This does not mean you can't get a degree in the midwest and not work in New York, Chicago, or LA- This comment is more about smaller markets like mine here in Dayton, Ohio.
If it is your desire to work for a Graves, Stern, Koetter, Eisenmann, Venturi, Gehry, or anyother BIG NAME - the pedigree school will help you. We talking Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Cornell, Columbia. Otherwise you need a very strong portfolio.
That being said, Miami is far better than any of those other piles of brick in Ohio - oh I forgot UC is made of styrofoam 
5) After graduation, it is your portfolio and work experience that opens doors. I graduated Miami (OH) with a Master of Architecture and was hired by one of the premier design firms in Dayton and Ohio. They had won over 80 design awards and published alot. After nearly a year, I left there and worked for a nationally known guy who had been a Loeb Fellow at Harvard. (Side note - it was not fun to work with that kind of ego - consider it fair warning). I eventually spent 4 years with a residential-focused firm and then 3 years with a large E/A firm as the senior project architect. I opened my own practice 10 years ago.
6) The decision of happiness and creativity is yours to know. But I am overjoyed to wake up everyday and do something that has great meaning to me. You should talk to architects in your area about how they feel. I recommend talking to small firm folks as they seem to be more driven to the creative side and the money is usually less.
I had a young man working for me a few years ago. Had a high paying job in nuclear chemistry at a local DOE facility and walked away to be an architect after 3 years. He was a Miami Graduate with a M Arch. You are not alone.
Hope this helps some. Good luck |
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noOne289
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Cincinnati, OH USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for your quick response and thorough answers. They will certainly help to make my decision when I am able to really put some thought into your advice.
However, I'm afraid I wasn't perfectly clear about what I wanted in the first question. When I asked undergrad or grad, I was referring to undergrad + M. Arch. For example, this passed weekend I was visiting friends in Savannah and so decided to stop into SCAD. They have a B. + 1 (5 yr. total) and I would be able to transfer in some of my courses, potentially cutting it down to 3-4 years. They also offer a straight M. Arch, which is a 2 yr. program + any prereqs. This would work out to be 3-4 years as well since I have no undergrad exp. with arch. The advantage to the undergrad route is that they would focus more on my H.S. grades rather than undergrad. I also wouldn't have to build a portfolio since they require either a 20 piece portfolio or a 8-10 page research paper. Additionally, I would not have to take the GRE which, as I mentioned earlier, I'm going to take anyway. And as a freebie, I'd get an extra degree out of it (B.S.). I was just wondering if there were any advantages to the straight M. Arch path.
Next, I assume you made no comments on the GRE scores b/c you are unsure. If that is the case, I appreciate your not simply making up a number. I just wanted to be sure you didn't simply overlook that question.
I'm also curious about your views of UC. You see, I currently live in Cincy and have heard very mixed reviews of the bearcats. The opinion ranges anywhere from rated number 1 to not even in the top 15. I know the pitfalls with rankings, but it seems to be quite a broad spectrum. Your opinion seems to be somewhat negative and I assume you're referring to the 'disposable building' when you make reference to styrofoam. Anyhow, I'm actually not really considering UC b/c I just want to get out of the area for a while. I was just curious what you thought.
Since we are so close, geographically, I was wondering if you might be able to get me in contact with this former Chem.E. you know. If he (she?) was willing to talk to me, I'd love to give a call or email or something.
Lastly, since you worked with such a large firm and I have family in Dayton, are there any buildings I might know in the area on whose design you worked? I mostly know the south side of the city (Kettering, Centerville, etc.), but I'm going to be driving through today on my way to Toledo and would love to keep an eye out for something you did.
Anyway, thanks again for your advice. If anybody else would like to contribute to these thoughts, I'd love to hear it; the more the merrier. |
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RWL
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 399
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:19 am Post subject: |
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With due regard for my future colleague in Oxford, Cincinnati is still ranked No.1 in the ALMANAC OF DESIGN AND ARCHITECTURE. I think you will find that this book is based on survey information from professional offices, active professionals, and not mere personal opinions, and traditional status.
Also, Cincinnati has always mainatined its primary attribute-- the co-op system. There are very few schools who utilize this format which allows the student to gain valuable in-office/field experience while still in the academic sequence. Hence, graduation produces an experienced graduate, who has a leg-up in finding a job. That singular element has long stood Cincinnati in good stead. Over the years, the curriculum has vacillated, but I think it has stabilized and is top qulaity at this time.
Also, Cincinnati has mainatained its NAAB accreditation continuously, which speaks well to the effort for quality education.
I am sure your direction and intention is far different from mine, but over the course of my career, and as a native Cincinnatian, I have no regrets, and have been the victim of no stigma by being a UC grad-- oh, and yes, I have, fortunately, come by some professional kudos for being such! Remember, too, it is your individual attitude and effort that makes or breaks your academic preparation. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 531
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:19 am Post subject: |
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1) I don't understand the desire to get a second Bacholer's degree. The 3 1/2 year M Arch at Miami is for folks without any background in architecture. Why spend 3 1/2 years and only get a B Arch. The M Arch usually puts you in the Design Group. The B Arch ususally gets you in the Production Group. At least where I have worked - the M Archs were the designers. Miami is not the only 3 1/2 year program for non-majors.
The portfolio would help you over those who don't have one. I recommend you pay a visit to Oxford and talk to John Reynolds - Graduate Program Director for more information.
2) Clueless on the GRE. Talk to John Reynolds. He has an email adress on the Department website and you should be able to ask lots of questions that way.
3) The UC stuff is just for fun. The bearcats kicked our butts last week for the Victory Bell - that hurt.
On the serious side, I think and have seen their architecture grads to be more technically focused. That is not a bad thing, it is more about what you want out of a program. They are usually the folks who have been the techincal people doing working drawings on my projects over the years. That does not mean there aren't designers coming out of that school. But that does not seem to be the main product. For me - I wanted an art school based program to compliment by BS Technology from BGSU. It is about what are you looking for? The Savannah school would be art based no doubt.
4) Look me up in the Dayton yellow pages under architects. Just add Associates to my username for the firm name. More than happy to talk to you at length and give you the young man's name. He was a UC Chemistry grad that did his M Arch at Miami.
5) Out of school I worked for Richard Levin and was the jr. designer on the Dayton Airport Terminal Expansion and was the designer for the MVRTA Annex off of SR 35 (1986). Worked for Woolpert - Designed the Central Boiler Plan at Dayton Mental Health - Don't know the name now (1991-94). Also was the Project Architect for the Woodland Cemetry Administration Building (1992?) Nice project that won both design and preservation awards. I took over the project and turned an excellant design by the lead designer (I did not do the design) into a winner. No one had the experience to detail the Modern design that the project called for - Thank you Richard Levin. Those are probably the most visable, but I do a lot of small work and interior renvoations. I have a nice daycare building near the Dayton Mall that has gotten a lot of compliments and talk, but I just don't pursue publishing and awards anymore - that is really for our egos and not for our clients. People come to us because we do nice work and our clients recommend us to their friends.
I think the pedigree of the design firms you intern with are as important as the school and mine was with Richard Levin, FAIA and Dale Smith easily two of the best designers in Ohio of the past 40 years. (1961-1990 being their best production) Dale was once the Partner -in -charge- of Design for Levin. Check out his work (UC Grad and Loeb Fellow) Both of these guys had worked for big name firm on the west and/or east coast prior to returning to Ohio. Nice work. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 531
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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It was not my intention to arouse feelings of insecurity and worhlessness from the UC crowd, but this could be kinda of fun......
I think you need to look at the entire univeristy and not just the single department as our education is based upon the reputation of the entire university... so here is some things to consider about Miami..... although I don't think your really considering it as an option......
Relax RWL it's all in fun, because when it comes to urban planners UC produces the Best I have ever worked with. PERIOD. Check out the work of your fellow alumni at www.Woolpert.com. You SHOULD be proud to be a UC grad. There is a good, strong and long tradition of Professionals coming out of the DAACP and the Engineering school - all kidding and joking aside..... but just this one last bit of fun.......
So now to take this thread where it was never intended to go
Concerning National Recognition
• The 2005 U.S. News & World Report college rankings lists Miami among the top 25 public universities in the nation based on academic quality.
• The Fiske Guide to Colleges 2005 awarded Miami 4.5 stars for academics (out of a possible five-star ranking), praising Miami as a "rising star among state universities."
• Kaplan Publishing's 2005 edition of The Unofficial, Biased Guide to the 331 Most Interesting Colleges recognizes Miami as one of the country's top schools. The rankings are based on a survey of guidance counselors at public and private high schools.
• The 2004 Kaplan-Newsweek College Catalog lists Miami as one of 27 "hidden treasures—terrific schools that deserve more national recognition" and as one of 70 schools that "offer the best value for your tuition dollar." No other Ohio university was so recognized.
• In the September 26, 2003 edition of The Wall Street Journal, Miami is named as one of the top feeder schools for 15 elite graduate programs in an article titled "Want to go to Harvard Law?" Of Miami students who apply to law school, 80 percent are accepted, compared to 65 percent nationally.
• Entrepreneur magazine ranked Miami 6th regionally in its 2003 Top 100 Entrepreneurial Colleges and Universities.
• Miami was named one of 30 schools in the United States that offers "an education comparable to that at Ivy League universities at a fraction of the price" in the book The Public Ivies: America's Flagship Universities.
Concerning High Academic Standards
• Miami is among a select group of universities in the nation that have produced a Rhodes Scholar, a Truman Scholar, and a Goldwater Scholar in the same academic year. Other schools in this select group are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, Stanford, Syracuse, and the University of Washington. (2004)
• Miami was one of 33 schools nationally—and one of only 15 public schools—to have three or more recipients of the Barry M. Goldwater scholarship for the 2003-2004 academic year. This scholarship is the most prestigious award of its type for undergraduates in mathematics, engineering, or the natural sciences.
• Thirty-seven percent of enrolled first-year students ranked in the top 10 percent of their high-school class. Sixty-four percent ranked in the top 20 percent. Eighteen percent scored a 30 or above on the ACT and 1340 or above on the SAT I.
• Of all qualified students applying to medical school, 82 percent of Miami students are accepted, compared to 47 percent nationally. (2004)
• According to July 2004 data, 90 percent of students return for their sophomore year.
• In 2003, Miami was recognized by the Truman Scholarship Foundation as an Honor Institution for producing Truman Scholars. The only Ohio school, Miami shares this distinction with 46 other universities, including Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, and Yale.
• Miami consistently ranks among the top 10 universities in the nation for the number of students studying abroad. Miami ranks first among doctoral institutions. (2004) |
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noOne289
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Cincinnati, OH USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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RWL,
Thank you for your guidance regarding UC and I will assume that there is no alumni bias involved  . Growing up in Cincy as a perpective architect I heard only comments about UC and so find myself ignorant to the truth of the arch. industry. You are not the first person to make mention of the "ALMANAC OF DESIGN AND ARCHITECTURE" and I wonder, how reliable are these rankings? Also, does the book delve into the type of education acquired, i.e. artistic v. technical, and the direction the department is headed, i.e. historic preservation, adaptive reuse, etc? I am very interested in finding such a guide as I have many facets to consider and very little time in which to discover them. I have already purchased and begun review of the ACSA publication, but would love to find out more.
Phansford,
I don't want to dwell on this and so will make one last attempt at explaining my original question with regards to the level of entry into the architecture program. No matter which program I choose, I will be pursuing a M. Arch. My point with SCAD was that both degrees result in a M. Arch. and will take approximately the same amount of time to complete. I listed the advantages I saw and was given regarding undergraduate admission (with the ultimate reward being a M. Arch. in 3-4 years) and was simply wondering if there were any advantages to enrolling directly into the M. Arch. program, which has a more rigorous admissions process and will take the same amount of time to complete.
I have been in the Dayton airport and have frequently commented on the interesting and abstract ties to air travel and the part Dayton has contributed to it's history. It is, in a way, a modern tribute to the city's historical contributions. Well done. That is the only building with which I am familiar.
It is refreshing to hear a person successful in his chosen profession elect an attitude of mentorship and assistance rather than arogance and condescension.
Thank you both for your input and guidance. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 531
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I would recommend that you talk to the graduate program director in Savannah to get their input. Particularily if you think it would be easier to get admission through one program over the other. I have always found these folks to be very straight forward in discussing options for potential students. From the point that you discuss, that you get an M Arch at the end either way, does it really matter? Does it really come down to getting the B Arch quickly and being able to work while finishing the M Arch. I am not sure. I guess it depends on what you want to do?
Find out from Savannah if they have students from your background to discuss the issue. I can't say enough about it. Talk to the students as to the pros and cons. Their views may be jaded due to their position of being overworked by hard driving professors. I think RWL would agree. talk to current students is very valuable.
Thanks for your kind words on the Airport. The Head Designer was a guy named David Scott Ross. A Lawerance Tech graduate (Detroit area) and Miami M Arch grad. He is really talented and working in Cincinnati the last time I heard. My role was working out design details, doing large ink on mylar with color panatone drawings, and concourse design. David was a great person to learn and work with. No matter where you go to school, you need to find a quality firm to start your internship. There are some quality firms in Cincinnati. I really like John Senhauser's work (UC Grad I think) and Paul Muller still seems to be burning up the scene (former Venturi employee). |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 531
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh yeah, like I said before, feel free to call me at my office and I will give you the name and number of the Chemistry Major turn architect. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 531
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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I just thought of something else that may weight into your decision. Graduate Assistantships and Teaching Assistantship.
With your background in Computer Engineering, you may be able to get an assistantship outside of the department of architecture. Assistantships pay you for teaching or helping teach coursework and waive all tuition and fees. It is how I got through Miami. Certainly takes the finanical sting out of graduate school. |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| phansford wrote: |
• Miami is among a select group of universities in the nation that have produced a Rhodes Scholar, a Truman Scholar, and a Goldwater Scholar in the same academic year. Other schools in this select group are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, Stanford, Syracuse, and the University of Washington. (2004)
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i just found the inclusion of duke in this list sort of humorous... since much of their acedemic successes have been tied to their success as a sports school...which could be similar for syracuse and miami...
there was some kind of study about success of sports programs v. success of acedemic programs i read a little while ago...they used duke as one of their main examples in the study...
in the end i don't know how much credit you can give it...but i thought it was a funny tidbit |
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RWL
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 399
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:33 am Post subject: |
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I am not sure what you wish from the soruce, but following is the synopsis of the Almanc-- may be you'll find some of what you seek:
Almanac of Architecture & Design, 2004
“Indispensable...solid, reliable, and remarkably complete...In a world in which access to information is critical the Almanac is essential.”
—Robert Campbell, The Boston Globe
“No comparable resource exists.”
—Library Journal
Comprehensive, easy to use, and entertaining, the Almanac of Architecture & Design brings together a host of worldwide facts and resource information including:
Architecture and design award histories, winners, and acceptance speeches
Professional organizations and their annual awards and honors
Student leaders on the future of the design professions
Rankings of the top colleges of architecture and design
Leading firms by location and areas of specialization
Latest records, rankings, and important achievements
Important and unique buildings, from sports stadiums to skyscrapers to the most visited historic houses
Need to know facts on architectural and historic preservation
Latest census information on architects and designers
Opinion polls on buildings, design leaders, and the future of the profession
Updated salary and compensation guide
Design econometrics and registration laws
Recommended bookstores, magazines, and journals
Recent obituaries of design leaders
....and much much more
“The only source book of its kind, this Almanac is the design professional's definitive resource.”
—MSN.com |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 531
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:01 am Post subject: |
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Architorture -
The Miami referenced in this thread is Miami Univerity (Ohio), not University of Miami. While we had a top 10 football team last year and the hockey team made it to the field of 16 for the NCAA national tournament, Miami is not considered a sports powerhouse. The sucess of Miami (of Ohio) has been academic.
Don't feel bad, everyone confuses Miami (OH) with U of Miami (FL). It really torques the almuni to no end. Miami (OH) was founded in 1809 when Florida was still part of Spain. We also boost an Alumni who became President (Harrison), which few schools can boost - outside the Ivy League or the Military Academies.
I can't imagine the stigma of the big sports schools. |
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noOne289
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Cincinnati, OH USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Phansford,
That is a great suggestion about using my C.S.E degree as an assistantship. My wife and I had never considered that. I had only thought of using architecture. I will be trying to contact you sometime this week. Thank you for you generous offer to speak with me.
RWL,
Thank you for your synopsis of "Almanac of Architecture & Design" was quite helpful. I will be ordering it this week from Borders. One question, they seem to have upped the price for the 2004 edition; are the differences b/w 2003 and 2004 significant?
Thanks again, everyone, for all of your input. If there is any more out there I'd love to hear it. |
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